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Inlägg #1: Postat: 2002-07-15 16:33:00
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Frederik |
However, where I disagree with your argument is when you talk about the free West or Sweden, in this case. Isnt the culture and political system we are born in part of our circumstances, just like our appearance, social status etc. when it comes to choosing partners?
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Inlägg #2: Postat: 2002-07-15 16:37:00
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Frederik |
In other words: someone living in Iraq or coming from an oppressive culture is just as free in the sense of inner freedom to choose his reaction to that culture than someone in Sweden is. He can participate in the system, join the resistance, or just try to make a living in poverty. In terms of inner freedom the West is just as free as the most oppressive dictatorship or culture one can think of. Free thinkers are to be found everywhere.
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Inlägg #3: Postat: 2002-07-15 16:39:00
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Frederik |
However, thats so far only theory. In practice outer freedom comes in, and there you have lots of barriers that limit us, even in the West: race, religion, wealth, not wearing trendy clothes... You can choose your reaction to those barriers, but you cannot choose the consequences this will have on you.
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Inlägg #4: Postat: 2002-07-15 16:48:00
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Frederik |
Another important issue here is education and awareness. During my field researches among poor farmers in Brazil and Tanzania I realised how low levels of education completely limit a persons ability to choose. S/he often simply does not know. And from what I have read about marginal but not small groups in the West mainly the US, education, especially higher education, is not at all a given when you are for instance from a black, deprived background.
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Inlägg #5: Postat: 2002-07-15 16:53:00
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Frederik |
If you combine all this, you get the my picture that in *theory* we are free, anywhere, anytime. In *practice* however things arent that simple, and the use of our freedom is often very limited. And I personally dont think talking about freedom in theory only makes much sense.
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Inlägg #6: Postat: 2002-07-15 22:04:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 2 |
Nej, irakiern är inte politiskt fri, eftersom hans eventuella politiska aktiviteter medför att han kommer att utsättas för allvarliga kränkningar.
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Inlägg #7: Postat: 2002-07-15 22:07:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 3-5 |
Begriper inte riktigt vad du menar. Du kan dock bringa lite klarhet i saken genom att berätta huruvida du tycker att vi i Sverige är "fria" eller inte att välja vår partner, samt huruvida du tycker att flickorna i en kultur där tvångsgifte allmänt tillämpas är det eller inte.
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Inlägg #8: Postat: 2002-07-15 23:50:00
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Frederik, answer to 7 |
Easy. Imagine Im a physically unattractive young woman living in Sweden: my choice of partners will be severely limited by social norms and preferences, whether I want it or not. If on the other hand Im a young woman living in India, this same choice will be limited by the cultural norms of arranged marriage, the financial possibilites of my parents for paying dowry etc. In both cases Im deprived of part of my outer freedom.
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Inlägg #9: Postat: 2002-07-15 23:56:00
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Frederik |
You might reply that theres is comparably more room for manoeuvre in Sweden than in India though you should say that to the woman in question, and I bet shell disagree. Still, once you extrapolate your example to other areas of life such as jobs, youll notice that even in the West many social groups are severly limited in their outer freedom through our system. Less so in Sweden than in the US, but its the West were talking about, right?
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Inlägg #10: Postat: 2002-07-16 00:02:00
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Frederik, answer to 7 |
As for the Iraqi, read again what I said about the difference of inner and outer freedom. His inner freedom how he lets himself be affected by the circumstances is untouched. His outer freedom on the other hand isnt.
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Inlägg #11: Postat: 2002-07-16 00:15:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar till Frederik 8-10 |
Du har här hittat på begreppen "inre" och "yttre" frihet; synbarligen för att slippa besvara frågan på riktigt. Jag låter mig nöja med det.
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Inlägg #12: Postat: 2002-07-16 09:23:00
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Frederik |
I havent invented the concept of inner freedom myself, actually. Its part of philosophical and spiritual thought for thousands of years. You might want to read Erich Fromm, a humanistic psychologist/philosopher to get a better understanding of both its history and what it exactly means read especially his To have or to be? and Escape from Freedom.
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Inlägg #13: Postat: 2002-07-16 09:25:00
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Frederik |
...as for outer freedom, I have invented the name, but not the concept. Thats what any social movement, be it womens rights, Ghandis struggle for Indian independence or the landless farmers in Brazil are struggling for.
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Inlägg #14: Postat: 2002-07-16 09:28:00
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Frederik |
To me it feels more like answer 11 shows that you have run out of arguments. You havent even told why you think that I havent answered your question. I have. So where do you think did I go wrong?
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Inlägg #15: Postat: 2002-07-16 14:57:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 14 11, 8, 7 |
Du berättar inte för oss huruvida du tycker att vi i Sverige är fria eller inte att välja vår partner och huruvida du tycker att flickorna i en kultur där tvångsgifte allmänt tillämpas är det eller inte. Du skriver däremot bl.a. att en motbjudande svenska och en tvångsbortgift indiska bägge har ytterst begränsade alternativ, men detta är en helt annan sak. Du besvarar alltså inte frågan på ett meningsfullt sätt.
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Inlägg #16: Postat: 2002-07-16 16:02:00
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Frederik |
Ok, thats more like it. What I do say through my example is that *outer* freedom is relative, not absolute, no matter which culture or political system you live in. We differ in that you think that external circumstances dont play a role, whereas I say that when it comes to outer freedom their role is crucial. In any life-field, including choice of partners, you will find barriers we did not choose ourselves that limit the way we can live our life.
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Inlägg #17: Postat: 2002-07-16 16:03:00
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Frederik |
What you understand with freedom, according to me, is closer to my ‘inner freedom’-concept. We cannot choose our circumstances, but we can choose how we let ourselves be affected by them, what we do about them. Though even here I’d put some question marks: What about the mentally ill? What about the people with little education and no exposure to alternative ways of life? They are not or less free because they don’t know that other options are available, or are unable to see them.
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Inlägg #18: Postat: 2002-07-16 16:10:00
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Frederik |
To come back to your example: there is indeed relatively more *outer* freedom in Sweden when it comes to partner-choice. But not for everyone. When talking freedom you should always ask In what life-field? And for whom?. The world is not either black or white. It comes in shades of grey.
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Inlägg #19: Postat: 2002-07-16 16:10:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 16-17 |
Begriper inte alls detta ditt svar. Kan du inte bara svara på frågan? Eller låt oss ta en ännu enkare fråga: Kalle kan bara hoppa 1 meter, men är inte begränsad av någon lag; Stina kan hoppa 2 meter, men det finns en lag som säger att kvinnor får hoppa högst 1.5 meter; vem av Kalle och Stina är friast att hoppa, tycker du?
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Inlägg #20: Postat: 2002-07-16 16:27:00
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Frederik |
Note that were talking what freedom is, not whether partner-choice in Sweden is free or not. From the time of your comment I assume though that you didnt have the opportunity to read answer 18 when you wrote 19. Anyway, next my answer to 19.
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