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Inlägg #21: Postat: 2002-07-08 15:36:00
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Frederik contd. |
And theres the point of Anas thought experiment according to me: given the relatively high pay, porn isnt a business that most of the actors get involved with out of their free will because they find self-fulfilment there, and that theyd love to do even if it were for free.
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Inlägg #22: Postat: 2002-07-08 15:41:00
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Frederik contd. |
Thats why I put big question marks to arguments a la Its the peoples be it playmates, prostitutes or porn actors own free choice whether they participate or not. It assumes an idealised society full of self-confident and financially independent people that simply doesnt exist in reality.
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Inlägg #23: Postat: 2002-07-08 15:48:00
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Frederik last one |
The reason why I stick to porn or nudity, for that matter as an example is because thats what the debate was initially about, and where Ana wanted to make a point, similar I guess to what I wrote in 22.
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Inlägg #24: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:15:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 20 |
Det "visar" det inte alls.
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Inlägg #25: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:17:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 20-23 |
Är din tanke alltså att det aldrig någonsin är fråga om "fri vilja" då någon väljer att stå ut med någonting besvärligt eller motbjudande därför att det är så bra betalt? Eller gäller det bara de yrken du tycker illa om förekomsten av?
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Inlägg #26: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:48:00
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Frederik, answer to 24 |
What would be "proof" for you, then?People dont shoot themselves when theyre happy and fulfilled, do they? Anyway, heres the link to the article. Judge for yourself: Länk: salon.com |
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Inlägg #27: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:51:00
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Frederik, answer to 25 |
Now were getting into philosophy, and Id be glad if you could put off the blinkers that make you think every time that Im biased against some jobs. My point can be applied generally, but I focus on porn because thats what the debate was about.
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Inlägg #28: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:53:00
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Frederik contd. |
But to be general, if you so wish: if someone chooses a job s/hed rather not do because s/he has no alternative no matter whether gathering trash, joining the French Foreign Legion or working in porn then I wouldnt call it a free choice, no.
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Inlägg #29: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:53:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 26 |
Det är inte sakuppgiften i sig jag invänder emot, utan det orsakssamband du tycks ta för givet.
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Inlägg #30: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:55:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 28 |
Så pass? Föreställer du dig att schlagersångerskan Kaya inte hade något annat alternativ, utan desperat behövde pengarna? För det är ju, för att använda ditt eget uttryck 27, det som debatten handlade om.
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Inlägg #31: Postat: 2002-07-08 16:59:00
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Frederik contd. |
...youll find exceptions, of course, certainly if you look for them. Aldrig nagonsin is an impossibility. Still, I leave it up to you know to prove me that the sex-industry consists in its majority of healthy, self-fulfilled and happy people. *Thats* what the debate was about.
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Inlägg #32: Postat: 2002-07-08 17:04:00
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Frederik, answer to 28 |
Obs.: I have no idea who Kayo is, nor have I seen her pictures. But I can imagine that for her the motivation may have been a mix of marketing money and vanity. Id also call her choice free, if that makes you happy.
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Inlägg #33: Postat: 2002-07-08 17:06:00
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Frederik contd. |
Still, the debate may have started with Kayo, but later on moved on to utvik in general. And there I think Ana made a good point, which you so far seem to have missed. Try answering the question in 31, could you?
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Inlägg #34: Postat: 2002-07-08 17:08:00
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Frederik, answer to 30 |
Read the article its more of a story, actually. The causal link it describes is implicit, but according to me pretty clear.
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Inlägg #35: Postat: 2002-07-08 17:47:00
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Frederik |
Just noticed that I mixed up things: 34 is an answer to 29, and 32 to 30.
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Inlägg #36: Postat: 2002-07-08 19:10:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 31 |
Du föreställer dig att debatten ursprungligen handlade om huruvida porrskådespelare i allmänhet är friska och glada? Så pass? Vem tänker du dig att har nämnt någonting om den saken?
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Inlägg #37: Postat: 2002-07-08 19:12:00
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Samuel Sirén, svar på svar 32 |
Aha! Kaya har i alla fall "fri vilja"! Gott.
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Inlägg #38: Postat: 2002-07-08 19:48:00
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Frederik |
Granted, I only read Marcus summary, so maybe I got it wrong altogether. But Anas editorial was aimed at probing the free will or whatever you want to call it of people who show themselves naked in any form. You then questioned that ironically, your argument - if I got it right - coming down to the fact that everyone works for money.
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Inlägg #39: Postat: 2002-07-08 19:53:00
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Frederik |
From then on Ive tried to show you that money is a stronger drive in some jobs than in others, and that it even lets some people ignore or accept the negative effects these may have, especially in the porn industry read the article yet?.
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Inlägg #40: Postat: 2002-07-08 19:58:00
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Frederik |
In a broad sense you can say therefore that the Ana/Samuel/Frederik-part of the debate was about arguing in how far people participating in the sex-industry do it for self-fulfilment or purely for the money whatever reason it may be that makes them need the money.
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