Därför finns inte gud

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Inlägg #21: Postat: 2002-10-28 15:33:00
Frederik
...so you know that for instance the Theory of Relativity is true? Unless youre a particle physicist who actually performed some empirical experiments, all you have to base your knowledge upon is your trust i.e. faith in the scientific institution.
Inlägg #22: Postat: 2002-10-28 16:24:00
Frederik
...besides, even scientific knowledge is philosophically speaking temporary. If youd have told a late 19th century physicist about quarks and neutrinos or even that time is relative hed have laughed at your face. In case you havent, then you should check out some stuff from Karl Popper about the philosophy of science.
Inlägg #23: Postat: 2002-10-28 16:27:00
Frederik
Sorry, 22 isnt very clear. What I mean is that scientific paradigms the way science views the world at a given time are regularly subject to shifts. In essence scientific knowledge is nothing more than something that works with the means we have at hand, but can shift radically once new discoveries are made. Its never an absolute truth contrarily to what pop-science may want us to believe.
Inlägg #24: Postat: 2002-10-29 09:20:00
Sebastian Weil
Again. Faith is faith. Knowledge is knowledge, and trust is trust. To accept something without proof or that goes against logic is faith. However, science is not built up that way. Science is based on empirical studies and research. That I hold the theory of gravitity, f.i., for being true is not faith. Since it is built up of logical facts that does not go against reality, but actually works with reality.
Inlägg #25: Postat: 2002-10-29 11:49:00
Frederik
Feel free to define faith that way. Id presonally disagree with the goes against logic part, but theres no point in debating that. As for science: are you a theoretical physicist? Have you checked all the logical facts of the theory of relativity? Do you have any working experience in the business of science? I daresay that in most or all cases your answer will be no.
Inlägg #26: Postat: 2002-10-29 11:54:00
Frederik
...and in that case the only proof you have is your trust in the institution of science. You dont know. You only assume because others claim that they know, and because you have gathered enough of what you assume to be evidence to trust them. Mind me, I did the same. With the difference perhaps that Im a bit more critical towards science than you are. Science gives us models that work, not reality as it is read any Popper yet?.
Inlägg #27: Postat: 2002-10-29 18:15:00
David Woxberg
Frederik: Well, first of all, I am not a physician, so I cannot determine the truth or falsity of your proposition concerning Quantum Mechanics. However, I do view existence as a realm of interconnected entities, the law of causality being the link in between each entity. However, the law of causality arises from the nature, the identity, of all individual entities. Hence: without identity, no causality, and without causality no interrelation.
Inlägg #28: Postat: 2002-10-29 18:18:00
David Woxberg
A small correction: The word "interconnected" was meant to be "interrelated".
Inlägg #29: Postat: 2002-10-29 20:46:00
Frederik
David: what quantum mechanics have discovered is that there is no causality at the causal level. You cannot for instance predict the spin of a neutron; it is a purely random phenomenon. Statistics are used instead, but as you probably know statistics can only give probabilities, not certainties.
Inlägg #30: Postat: 2002-10-29 20:48:00
Frederik
Same for identities. Our model of electrons, neutrons etc. being little balls is only that, a model, that helps us understand some phenomena. Seeing them as waves is also a necessity in the use of certain formulae. What they really are however we do not know.
Inlägg #31: Postat: 2002-10-29 20:50:00
Frederik
Mind me, your view of interrelated identities linked by causal laws works to describe a lot of things. Only that one shouldnt fall into the trap of thinking that it is *the* truth. It isnt.
Inlägg #32: Postat: 2002-10-30 00:22:00
Frederik
...just noticed a mistake in comment 29. It should read theres no causality at the quantum level.
Inlägg #33: Postat: 2002-11-04 05:41:00
David Woxberg
I highly doubt that there is no causality on the quantum level. The fact that we cannot precisely point out causal relations at that level does not mean that it does not exist. One cannot prove the existence of non-identity or non-causality without referring to particulars, i.e. existing entities or definite causal relations.
Inlägg #34: Postat: 2002-11-04 14:17:00
Frederik
Here Id recommend you to read more about quantum physics which so far hasnt proven anything in the sense that it has more questions than answers about the nature of matter. Its ok for you to think the way you do, but it will be a belief of yours, neither based on logic nor on reason, and certainly not validated by scientific empirical data.
Inlägg #35: Postat: 2002-11-05 02:53:00
David Woxberg
And without even answering my argument you outright call my standpoint a "belief" which has nothing to do with reason. And you do this while admitting that QM hasnt been proved! I dont have the energy to put up with you any longer. I dont think that any arguments can affect those who choose not to listen.
Inlägg #36: Postat: 2002-11-05 10:26:00
Frederik
Well, my hope was that by reading about quantum physics youd realise the limitations of human knowledge. You may doubt that there is no causality at the quantum level, but this means you yourself have no particulars to prove *your* point either. And the current state of quantum research will show you that even with our most modern measuring equipment you wont find them either.
Inlägg #37: Postat: 2002-11-05 10:29:00
Frederik
...besides as food for thought: if everything - from the collision of neutrons to the processes in our brains - is linked by causal laws and can - theoretically - be predicted, where do you then physically locate mans free will?
Inlägg #38: Postat: 2002-11-05 10:30:00
Frederik
...those who choose not to listen, eh? It seems like youre more hearing yourself when youre reading my comments than anyone else. The tone in which you read a text is not necessarily the tone in which it was written.
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