|
Inlägg #1: Postat: 2002-10-08 18:06:00
|
|
Martin, forts |
Jag tror att mänskligheten uppstått som en konsekvens av enkla naturlagar och naturligt urval. Den övertygelsen har jag fått genom att jag gjort mitt bästa för att vara intellektuellt hederlig under tjugo års studier av biologi, vetenskap och olika religioner. Hur kan det vara feghet att tro på det som man genom ärlig ansträngning kommit fram till är sant?
|
| |
|
Inlägg #2: Postat: 2002-10-08 18:07:00
|
|
Martin, forts 2 |
Borde jag då hellre tro på inte den idé som verkar ha bäst bevis, utan den som kräver mest av mig som person, eller vad vill du säga?
|
| |
|
Inlägg #3: Postat: 2002-10-08 19:19:00
|
|
Eileen Forsberg El Mogy |
Hederlighet och intellekt går inte alltid hand i hand med sunt förnuft.
I ansträngningar så svåra som dina, borde hjärtat också vara med.
Kanske borde du sett lite mera inåt i dig själv än utåt?
Bevis...? Varsågod! Den här sidan är öppen för alla funderingar.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #4: Postat: 2002-10-08 19:37:00
|
|
Martin |
Du svarar undvikande genom att antyda att om jag lyssnade mer till mitt hjärta skulle jag finna Gud. Fint, men det har inget att göra med min fråga, som handlade om att du på ett otrevligt sätt insinuerar att folk inte tror på Gud och liv efter detta för att de vill undandra sig ansvar. Är det verkligen vad du tror?
|
| |
|
Inlägg #5: Postat: 2002-10-08 20:34:00
|
|
JoeHill |
Livet är en produkt av entropi och gravitation. Punkt.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #6: Postat: 2002-10-08 23:31:00
|
|
Frederik |
Martin: I dont fully agree with what Eileen says, but she does have a point. Secular society with its individualistic, consumerist attitude is at odds with an understanding where one is part of and has a responsibility towards a larger whole. Though I personally do know of atheists/agnostics with a great sense of responsibility towards fellow humans. Its not a religious monopoly.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #7: Postat: 2002-10-08 23:33:00
|
|
Frederik |
JoeHill: you argue just like any religious fundamentalist would do, dont you think?
|
| |
|
Inlägg #8: Postat: 2002-10-09 13:13:00
|
|
Martin |
What attitude secular society has is completely beside the point here. Eileen is insulting a lot of people, including me, who have only been trying to do their best at finding out whats true and whats not.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #9: Postat: 2002-10-09 13:13:00
|
|
Martin, continued |
Suppose I belong to a religion that claims that theres no gravity as such - instead, objects are moved downwards by angels that also require you to sacrifice a goat each day. Further suppose that Eileen has spent years trying to find evidence for the angels in question, but failed. Would it then be fair of me to call Eileen a narrow-minded coward who is just trying to escape from her responsibility of sacrificing goats?
|
| |
|
Inlägg #10: Postat: 2002-10-09 13:49:00
|
|
Frederik |
Its only an insult if you take it as such. I still think its this attitude she was hinting at. Though Id like to point out that Christianity and Islam among others is not about sacrificing material things, but about becoming better people.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #11: Postat: 2002-10-09 16:25:00
|
|
JoeHill |
Visst kan man kalla mig en vetenskaplig fundamentalist. Jag tror stenhårt på det som empiriskt bevisats och presenterats i ansedda veteskapliga tidskrifter.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #12: Postat: 2002-10-09 16:47:00
|
|
Frederik |
Fine, as long as youre aware that its a belief based on specific assumptions, and not reality as it really is.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #13: Postat: 2002-10-09 17:56:00
|
|
JoeHill |
Vilka "specific assumptions"? Förtydliga.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #14: Postat: 2002-10-09 18:58:00
|
|
Frederik |
Itd take more than the space in these comments or my time would allow. You might want to read what Kuhn has to say about the subject, though, and I believe Heisenberg has also written something about our limitations of discovering truth through scientific methods.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #15: Postat: 2002-10-09 19:01:00
|
|
Frederik |
In short, perhaps, not to disappoint you: when Im doing even very fundamental research like particle physics Im looking at my findings with a specific model in my mind. And what I see is nothing more than that: a *model* that works more or less well. Its not real, only a tool for understanding.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #16: Postat: 2002-10-09 19:03:00
|
|
Frederik |
...by the way, concerning peer reviewing in scientific journals: did you read about the scandal related to Jan Hendrik Schön, that German physician who managed even to fool the journals Science and Nature for years before he got caught? Science is and remains a very human endeavour full of pitfalls and limitations. Just like religion, actually.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #17: Postat: 2002-10-09 19:05:00
|
|
Frederik |
...and finally: science may tell us how things work, but has nothing to say about how and why to live. We know a hell of a lot about how pollution works and how were damaging our planet, but weve nevertheless not yet, I hope managed to do something about it. Incidentally its in such fields of ethics and morals that religions have a lot to tell.
|
| |
|
Inlägg #18: Postat: 2002-10-09 20:42:00
|
|
Christer H |
Frederik, Eileen utrycker sig faktiskt kränkande om många som inte delar er uppfattning. Det var väl det Martin invände emot? Jag håller med honom! Mvh CH
|
| |
|
Inlägg #19: Postat: 2002-10-09 21:43:00
|
|
Frederik |
Christer: Ok, you have a point. Though now you know how I feel whenever someone says that religion is but a spiritual teddy-bear for weak-minded cowards... :
|
| |
|
Inlägg #20: Postat: 2002-10-10 13:43:00
|
|
JoeHill |
Angående Hendrik Schön så stärker det min poäng. Allt som publiceras och inte är sant kommer förr eller senare motbevisas. Detta händer inte i religionen, där allt bara omtolkas hela tiden för att passa nya data. Religion är inte en vetenskap! Detta påstod El Mogy.
|
| |